[Luxray]

Organization is the only reason to split Bosses away from other stages

Well agreed there, that's why i gave my suggestion earlier. Looks muuuch neater than 9 categories

You're saying we shouldn't have everything fall under Times/Rings/Score. My question is why not? You keep saying that but you haven't explained exactly why it's a bad thing to track times in the times division and scores in the scores division (which is essentially all that this is). I had other things to say here as well but I won't because I don't remember exactly what's been posted in the past and I'd have to reread the thread to make sure I don't post anything wrong.

Well, let's look at this game more in detail now. AD has said we are going to trial Super Sonic in the Times/Scores charts, so let us look at the times charts. If we have bosses, we'd only be allowed to have them for Sonic, since SS is unable to be activated. This means people would be forced to submit more stats in Times, just to get a total. By splitting these up, people can focus on the charts that give a more balanced total time, since some people are boss specialists, others are normal level specialists. By having them in the same chart, it sorta robs the boss attackers of a leadership that they can get.nother thread since it's not really relevant here.

[Parax]

another way you could look at it is that having them separated under two categories means that people can get the Times leadership and a full chart without actually TAing every level in the game. It goes both ways really. :/ True about SS though so meh.

[SonicandInuyasha]

I do hope we did have to do scores for the Special Stages because I could never beat my scores that I have now.

[SonicandInuyasha]

I mean do not have to do scores for the Special Stages.

[Strong Bad]

My thoughts.

I disagree completely. Infinite Points? should go to B&. Yes, it takes skill to point scalp as quickly as possible and for as long as possible while still finishing the level. The problem is, it's a type of skill that frankly I don't think we should value as it is alien to the type of skill ranked in the rest of the chart's competition. This same reason is why time-over strats in Times and finishing the level at 9:59 in Scores aren't allowed; it tests a type of skill that we don't want to test. Frankly, unless you want to argue for the use of Super/Hyper Sonic/Tails/Knuckles in all Times charts of S2-3&K and many other issues, you can't logically discount this reason.

[Zeupar]

After reading all the posts and spending some time trying to find the best way to sort the charts for Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode I, I think that we should sort them as follows:

Times
- Record Total
-- Total
- Total
-- Total
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
-- Bosses
-- Special Stages
- Splash Hill Zone Act 1
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Splash Hill Zone Act 2
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Splash Hill Zone Act 3
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Splash Hill Zone Boss
-- Bosses
- Casino Street Zone Act 1
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Casino Street Zone Act 2
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Casino Street Zone Act 3
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Casino Street Zone Boss
-- Bosses
- Lost Labyrinth Zone Act 1
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Lost Labyrinth Zone Act 2
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Lost Labyrinth Zone Act 3
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Lost Labyrinth Zone Boss
-- Bosses
- Mad Gear Zone Act 1
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Mad Gear Zone Act 2
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Mad Gear Zone Act 3
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Mad Gear Zone Boss
-- Bosses
- Egg Station Zone Boss
-- Bosses
- Special Stage 1
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 2
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 3
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 4
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 5
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 6
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 7
-- Special Stages

Scores
- Record Total
-- Total
- Total
-- Total
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
-- Bosses
-- Special Stages
- Splash Hill Zone Act 1
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Splash Hill Zone Act 2
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Splash Hill Zone Act 3
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Splash Hill Zone Boss
-- Bosses
- Casino Street Zone Act 2
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Casino Street Zone Act 3
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Casino Street Zone Boss
-- Bosses
- Lost Labyrinth Zone Act 1
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Lost Labyrinth Zone Act 2
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Lost Labyrinth Zone Act 3
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Lost Labyrinth Zone Boss
-- Bosses
- Mad Gear Zone Act 1
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Mad Gear Zone Act 2
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Mad Gear Zone Act 3
-- Sonic
-- Super Sonic
- Mad Gear Zone Boss
-- Bosses
- Egg Station Zone Boss
-- Bosses
- Special Stage 1
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 2
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 3
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 4
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 5
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 6
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 7
-- Special Stages

Rings
- Record Total
-- Total
- Total
-- Total
-- Acts
-- Bosses
-- Special Stages
- Splash Hill Zone Act 1
-- Acts
- Splash Hill Zone Act 2
-- Acts
- Splash Hill Zone Act 3
-- Acts
- Splash Hill Zone Boss
-- Bosses
- Casino Street Zone Act 2
-- Acts
- Casino Street Zone Act 3
-- Acts
- Casino Street Zone Boss
-- Bosses
- Lost Labyrinth Zone Act 1
-- Acts
- Lost Labyrinth Zone Act 2
-- Acts
- Lost Labyrinth Zone Act 3
-- Acts
- Lost Labyrinth Zone Boss
-- Bosses
- Mad Gear Zone Act 1
-- Acts
- Mad Gear Zone Act 2
-- Acts
- Mad Gear Zone Act 3
-- Acts
- Mad Gear Zone Boss
-- Bosses
- Egg Station Zone Boss
-- Bosses
- Special Stage 1
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 2
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 3
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 4
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 5
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 6
-- Special Stages
- Special Stage 7
-- Special Stages

[Luxray]

While that chart does look well structured, the only things I have a problem with is calling the levels "Splash Hill Zone Act 1" and "Special Stages" when you can easily put "Special" in. You, my friend, need to learn about proper web designing. But yeah, I guess I could settle for those charts so long as they get put up soon.

[flying fox]

I got a new save file for the Super Sonic times and scores.

Something I have to ask since I don't have super sonic unlocked ( I was going to do it but then my 360 died and I never got round to it on the wii. Not to mention I had personal problems at home meaning I had to prioritise things so I couldn't play as much as I wanted. Also I was under the impression that it was going to be freestyle, so I didn't bother getting it, but I'll get it later today :/) How will you be tracking super sonic times and scores? I know for a fact that the wii has several save files and I'm sure that the 360 doesn't. So does the 360 save super sonic times and scores separately to normal sonic? Sorry to ask this :(

Also yeah the charts look fine to me :)

EDIT: You guys know I mean how to prove stats right? :(

[Groudon]

How will you be tracking super sonic times and scores? I know for a fact that the wii has several save files and I'm sure that the 360 doesn't. So does the 360 save super sonic times and scores separately to normal sonic? Sorry to ask this :(

They upload separately to the leaderboards on 360 and PS3.

[flying fox]

How will you be tracking super sonic times and scores? I know for a fact that the wii has several save files and I'm sure that the 360 doesn't. So does the 360 save super sonic times and scores separately to normal sonic? Sorry to ask this :(

They upload separately to the leaderboards on 360 and PS3.

Thanks for that. I have nothing further to add. I'll try and compete in this when I have some spare time.

[francisco]

so... when are the charts up anyway?

[werster]

Still no CS1 score charts. I am saddened :(

Also, will super sonic charts be forced super sonic or just the option to use super sonic, because I'm sure a few charts would be better off with just sonic (Actually I'm not sure as I haven't tested, but it'd come up somewhere)

Also 24"33 Casino Street Boss. Be warned this one is even worse quality.

[flying fox]

Is there anyone here who can get maps for Sonic 4? RAing Lost Labyrinth 2, Mad Gear 1 and 2 isn't a barrel of laughs >_>

[SonicAD]

So we can track things like boss rings and not have a gimme leadership, I think we'll go with this:

Times:
Splash Hill 1
Splash Hill 2
Splash Hill 3
Splash Hill Boss
Casino Street 1
Casino Street 2
Casino Street 3
Casino Street Boss
Lost Labyrinth 1
Lost Labyrinth 2
Lost Labyrinth 3
Lost Labyrinth Boss
Mad Gear 1
Mad Gear 2
Mad Gear 3
Mad Gear Boss
E.G.G. Station

Rings and scores:
As above, minus Casino Street 1

Super Sonic times and scores:
As above, minus bosses

Special - Times:
Special Stage 1-7

Special - Rings:
Special Stage 1-7

Special - Score:
Special Stage 1-7

[francisco]

So we can track things like boss rings and not have a gimme leadership, I think we'll go with this:

Times:
Splash Hill 1
Splash Hill 2
Splash Hill 3
Splash Hill Boss
Casino Street 1
Casino Street 2
Casino Street 3
Casino Street Boss
Lost Labyrinth 1
Lost Labyrinth 2
Lost Labyrinth 3
Lost Labyrinth Boss
Mad Gear 1
Mad Gear 2
Mad Gear 3
Mad Gear Boss
E.G.G. Station

Rings and scores:
As above, minus Casino Street 1

Super Sonic times and scores:
As above, minus bosses

Special - Times:
Special Stage 1-7

Special - Rings:
Special Stage 1-7

Special - Score:
Special Stage 1-7

I think this is quite what I want. I agree with this.

[Thorn]

So our final decision is pretty close to what SonicAD proposed. I did pitch this earlier, though:

[14:03] <&Thorn> AD: can I propose pushing the boss levels from Times/Rings/Scores to Bosses/Rings/Scores?
[14:03] <&Thorn> there's nothing about the chart designs sugggesting that all ring/score levels must be in Times, afaik
[14:03] <&Thorn> that would allow Special Stages to have times under Special and everything else in the respective category too
[14:04] <~SonicAD> possibly
[14:04] <~SonicAD> but brb
[14:17] <~SonicAD> Thorn now I think about it that dovetails sort of well with the SS charts since they wouldn't have the boss
[14:17] <~SonicAD> hmm
[14:19] <~SonicAD> I think that'd be fine
[14:22] <~SonicAD> hell, if you want to do them go ahead because I probably can't put them up until Monday at the earliest but things appear to be sorted >_>

But wait, a challenger appears! Wall of text, but you guys should read it:

[16:29] <@Zeupar> Thorn is going to add the charts soon. I would like to put the addition on hold to discuss them better, but SonicAD isn't answering. :(
[16:29] <&Thorn> Zeupar exactly how long should they stay on hold?
[16:29] <&Thorn> it's been over two weeks since the XBLA release
[16:30] <@Zeupar> A day or two, until I can talk with SonicAD about it. He is leaving soon and I couldn't talk with him today.
[16:33] <&Thorn> what do you want to talk about
[16:33] <&Thorn> I don't think there's a lot of kinks left
[16:33] <&Thorn> AD posted his draft in the topic, and I mentioned a slight reorganization earlier that he agreed with that will probably be implemented
[16:34] <@Zeupar> What was it?
[16:34] <&Thorn> to move bosses from Times/rings/scores to bosses/rings/scores and specials from t/r/s to special/r/s
[16:35] <&Thorn> it's more than possible, TSC just doesn't do it most of the time >_>
[16:36] <@Zeupar> lol Thorn, looks like we won't reach an agreement about that then
[16:36] <&Thorn> well why do you propose not doing that
[16:36] <+GerbilSoft> the problem with rearranging categories etc is that it breaks time machine
[16:36] <@Zeupar> Doesn't that mean that Sonic 4 would have 12 different categories?
[16:36] <+GerbilSoft> because we don't have timestamped classes
[16:36] <&Thorn> 12 categories what
[16:36] <&Thorn> times/rings/scores/bosses/special
[16:37] <&Thorn> it's not a matter of special rings / special scores / boss rings / etc.
[16:37] <&Thorn> it's a matter of keeping all of the "finish this ASAP" levels in their usual divisions of boss, special, time, etc. while grouping stopping for rings or points into rings and scores
[16:37] <@Zeupar> That's the problem, you consider TAing Special Stages and bosses different enough to have categories for them
[16:38] <&Thorn> mm hmm
[16:38] <@Zeupar> so not doing the same with rings and scores is kinda inconsistent
[16:38] <&Thorn> Zeupar, indeed it's inconsistent
[16:38] <&Thorn> that doesn't mean S4 deserves 12 leaderships
[16:38] <@Zeupar> I agree with that
[16:38] <&Thorn> we should be making a practical number of splits
[16:39] <@Zeupar> and that's why I think that overall times/rings/scores is the best solution
[16:40] <Fen> I think the lesson here is "TSC architectural design is a clusterfuck"
[16:40] <+SkyL> ^
[16:40] <&Thorn> yeah, Fen, your architecture sucks :(
[16:40] <&Thorn> why couldn't you leave us a good site
[16:40] <@Zeupar> if you want to know who is better with sonic, supersonic, who is better at special-rings, who is better at bosses, etc, you have totals for that
[16:41] <@Zeupar> There is no need to have inconsistent categories to know who is better at what
[16:41] <Fen> Thorn if it was a good site I wouldn't have left it
[16:41] <@Zeupar> That's why totals are our best tool in this case
[16:41] <+SkyL> but inconsistent categories is something that is consistent with tsc
[16:41] <&Thorn> SkyL wins
[16:41] <&Thorn> inconsistent categories it is
[16:42] <Fen> dude that's so meta
[16:42] <@Zeupar> Being inconsistent in the past shouldn't be an excuse to keep being like that now
[16:42] <+SkyL> it is
[16:42] <+SkyL> because if we do that
[16:42] <+SkyL> then we go back and redo everything else
[16:42] <+SkyL> and nobody's going to do that
[16:42] <@Zeupar> I'm for it
[16:42] <@Zeupar> but gerbil said that there would be problems with the Time Machine... :(
[16:43] <&Thorn> Zeupar the issue here is that your proposal is in itself inconsistent with separate bosses for most prior games
[16:43] <&Thorn> there is no winning here for either of us
[16:43] <&Thorn> the site's in too deep
[16:43] <@Zeupar> Like I said, what's so bad about doing things properly from now on?
[16:44] <@Zeupar> If we sort Sonic 4 rings like I proposed, all we had to do in the future is discuss about consistency vs time machine >_>
[16:44] <@Zeupar> *charts...
[16:44] <&Thorn> because 12 leaderships makes the game worth a fuckton more sitewide than it deserves
[16:45] <+SkyL> which means sitewide needs to be retooled
[16:45] <+SkyL> which nobody wants to do either
[16:45] <@Zeupar> er... that isn't what I proposed, thorn. Check this post: http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=5011.msg53041#msg53041

So what do you guys want here?

• Times / Rings / Scores? This groups all types of timed charts together, all types of ring charts together, and all types of score charts together.
• Times / Rings / Scores / Bosses / Special? This separates the different types of time charts, but groups the same types of ring and score charts to avoid the "gimme leaderships" that SonicAD mentioned, although it's somewhat of an arbitrary idea.
• Times / Boss Times / Special Times / Rings / Boss Rings / Special Rings / Scores / Boss Scores / Special Scores? This separates everything, but in practice this is nine different leaderships for a hell of a lot of sitewide weight, particularly with boss rings once you have a lucky skilled run at the Mad Gear boss.
• Something not yet decided on?

Please post an opinion soon, as the charts are overdue per usual.

[Parax]

times/rings/scores/bosses/specials sounds good to me.

[Magnezone]

<SkyL> t/r/s/b/s is basically what sadv2/3/rush do where adv3 doesnt have scores and rush has TA, so i'd say that's the way to go if the aim is to be [most] consistent with the rest of the site

[Luxray]

[16:42] <+SkyL> because if we do that
[16:42] <+SkyL> then we go back and redo everything else
[16:42] <+SkyL> and nobody's going to do that

Challenge fucking accepted.

[16:42] <@Zeupar> but gerbil said that there would be problems with the Time Machine... :(

Fuck the time machine. It's not even properly implemented, and shouldn't hinder the site's development.

times/rings/scores/bosses/specials sounds good to me.

EDIT: Erm whoops, forgot to reply.

Yep, seems like that's how it's gonna work.

[SonicandInuyasha]

what about calling the Super Sonic times and scores Freestyle Time and Freestyle Scores?

[flying fox]

I believe that Super Sonic time and scores aren't going to be in freestyle anymore and get tracked properly. I can't remember, I would check to see if I'm right but this topic is way too long and I'm too lazy to read it again >_>

I'm fine with what you guys do with the charts as long as boss rings and scores are still in.

[EngiNerd]

I want Sonic 4 charts.
Period.

[Luxray]

@FF Yes, they are going to be tracked as a separate division within the Times and Scores categories.

@EngiNerd Quit whining. They'll be up soon enough.

[werster]

1'24"32 Lost Labyrinth 3. Nice run, still improveable however.

Also I still am not sure how Super Sonic charts are working. Will it be like S2/S3K where it is just the option, or will times performed with sonic be restricted to just the sonic charts, and then super sonic restricted to super sonic charts?

[Luxray]

Also I still am not sure how Super Sonic charts are working. Will it be like S2/S3K where it is just the option, or will times performed with sonic be restricted to just the sonic charts, and then super sonic restricted to super sonic charts?

They won't be like freestyle, where the best time is uploaded. These charts will be for levels that have used Super Sonic in some way, so as long as Super Sonic mode is activated in the level, it could even be right at the end, your time/score will count to the Super Sonic Division only, and not the Sonic Division.

To reiterate:
For your time to count in the Super Sonic division, Super Sonic must be used within the level in question.

Final time, so i can hopefully erase any ambiguity:
You must use Super Sonic, in the level you are trying to Time/Score Attack, for it to count in the Super Sonic division.

Conversely:
If you have not activated Super Sonic in a Time Attack or Score Attack run, your time/score will go to the Sonic Division.

[Parax]

also, Casino Street 1 - 0'29"40

[Aitamen]

I think the 3-way split seems good, honestly, but not having to clear specials/bosses to get a total time up also appeals to me.

rings/scores can be together or apart, I don't see it mattering because it counts up and not down >_>

but hey, that's just me.

EDIT: To clarify, I think T/R/S or (T/B/S)/R/S seems the best ideas, but the full split doesn't seem to be a bad idea for the future... then again, the way SEGA designs games could easily break the site regardless >_>

[werster]

A couple of hours trying SH2 and I found good route for Super Sonic, another few hours later and I ended up with 32"10, which I thought was rather impressive.

Less than ten minutes later I ended up with 31"52. How did I do so much better so quickly? Behold the power of pause abuse!

It destroies S4 to a pulp, seriously. It's very, very saddening :(

[EngiNerd]

@Luxray:
That was actually more me saying "I don't care how they're organized as long as they exist."  Make of this what you will.

[Luxray]

^

@EngiNerd Quit whining. They'll be up soon enough.

Unrelated matter:
I seem to be getting errors trying to quote the above post. No error code given, just "AN error has occured!"